An interview with Master Teacher, Alessandra Belloni. Conducted by Kevin Stein with Rick Allen and Lauren Monroe in Malibu, California.

February 3, 2003

Well, the first thing on my mind is the Black Madonna. I think one of the beautiful things about what you are doing is that we seem to have lost our rituals honoring the darkness. I know the theme has a long history with you...

It's been a personal journey.

Anywhere you want to intersect the journey would be fine. I mean, for example, it touches on why men don't have the same attachment to the Earth as women do. And one of the mysteries to me in seeing your presentation of the tamburello is--weren't men the original practitioners?

Mainly women actually. But, it shifted to men. The journey with the Black Madonna--what I call "The Value to the Black Madonna"--which is the title of the autobiography I am writing--it's a personal journey and I think that the best way for me to tell you about it is to start at the beginning.

Reviving this music--the Italian folk music I play--happened by accident, though I know now it was no accident. The journey took me to the south of Italy where there are many beautiful churches, usually by the water and mountains and the Madonna is always black.

I mean, growing up in Rome, I had no idea that the Madonna was black because they teach you that she was the mother of Christ. I always asked "why is she black?", but nobody ever gave me an answer that I could accept--they'd say things like the candle smoke made her black--but that didn't work for me. And then, the fact that I started to participate in these incredible drumming rituals like the tammorriata which I am teaching now.

But, just imagine when there are a lot of people drumming all night outside of a church as a vow to the Madonna! The vow is: "I drum to the Madonna all night long until sunrise." And usually people do it as a vow asking for some miracle for the healing of themselves or some relative. Or the dancing is the vow--to dance on stones and rocks--and usually you bleed. You also bleed when you play. So, you bleed when you dance and play. And it goes on and on for hours.

It was then that I started to understand that there was a power in the experience, even though I didn't work directly with that tradition. I was born in the city of Rome.

And this was 'hill or country music', wasn't it?

Country music of the peasants. People that are called 'ignorant' by some, but who I understand to be much wiser. But, the upper classes in Italy consider them the "ignorant peasant people" of the South. But, these are people who still know how to live with the cycles of nature.

So, once I went to this ritual for the Mother of the Madonna and she was represented as black. My brother was very ill at the time, suffering from drug-related problems. And I wanted to do something for his addiction. I didn't know what to do, but a friend recommended that I dance to the Madonna all night. I did that and was bleeding on my feet and felt this incredible power go through me. At that point, my brother got a fever and was really sick. I went home after a couple of days and my brother was fine. And for a while he was clean...

When was this?

Around 1982. Then, I started to get more and more curious about why She was black, why all these miracles happened, why all this healing happened around me and around people that I knew--and this journey continued until 1987, when I had surgery for cancer of the cervix. I had surgery for what they call cauterization of the cervix and when I woke up from the anesthesia, I had a vision of the Black Madonna who appeared right above my bed.

I had a very mystical experience. I didn't understand it right away. I do now. But, I could view other people in the Recovery Room. I could feel other people's pain, I could feel somebody else was dying, and I started feeling immense compassion. And also a lot of compassion for people who are in the Dark--I don't know how to explain it.

I know the Madonna was also telling me to do something for the Earth at the same time. What followed was another mystical experience here in California. I was flying with a friend who has a private plane and I really felt like the Earth was speaking to me: "You have to do something--for the Earth and the Black Madonna!"

I was crying in the back seat of his plane and nobody knew. This was also 1987.

I went back to Italy and met the man who was to become my husband and is still someone I love very much, but who suffered from drug addiction and eventually was arrested. And this was happening at the same time that as I was doing this research on the Black Madonna--I really wanted to understand who She was and was asking, "what is the Darkness about?"

I wanted to write an opera for her to perform in New York. At the same time, I got involved with my future husband and little-by-little, helped him to recover and come out of his darkness. Then, I started reading a lot of books, and not only going to festivals and witnessing these miracles. I realized that she really connects to these people who are lost in the darkness. So, these people who are lost in the darkness, they feel like they are embraced by the dark energy of the womb of the Earth. You really feel like you are going back to the womb of your mother. And most of the time, that's what we sacrifice--that attachment. A lot of people who become addicts or alcoholics carry that with them--like traumatic births. All of this I understand now, but then, I had no choice.

What practice did you use with your husband's predicament?

I took him to the processions of the Black Madonna and that was it--it changed him immensely. We started going to every site. So, he began--talk about men connecting!--he became completely devoted to the Black Madonna. We made journeys from site-to-site. Every journey was an amazing experience--that's why I want to write my book. Every place was different and we discovered them together.

We went to these ancient sites that were built over temples dedicated to different aspects of the Earth Mother Goddess. Like Ciabella, the black goddess of the Earth--who always had the frame drums played to her. She is also represented holding a frame drum.

I wanted to ask you about the frame drum. Are they all covered with goatskin?

Most of them, yes.

Is that an import from North Africa?

Well, in the sense that we know that the Ancient Egyptians used these frame drums--mainly played by women--and for initiation ceremonies, and then mostly for Isis who is a black goddess.

Played with the sistrum as well?

With the sistrum, together. And the Sumerians. And the drum that we use is from Ancient Greece where it travelled to Ancient Rome. If you go to Pompei, you can see them...

Are the drums somehow related to the Great God Pan? The symbolism of the goatskin?

I never saw it that way. But, the rituals were connected to both Pan and Dionysos.

Because when I saw you onstage in Pasadena...

Of all places! A very magical place...

It's my home, thank you. But, when I saw you performing there--I saw you as a maenad.

Maenad? That's what we are doing with the tarantella. The maenad and the bacchantes--women possessed by the god Dionysos. And they dance exactly like that. That's how...I always felt like that. I really know that was one of my places, one of my lives. It's so clear to me, you know, I felt that many times. In the south of Italy, specifically...but, the journey with the Black Madonna is very intense because it's something that once you start, you cannot stop.

Anyway, my husband and I found this church--but in all these sanctuaries, there is a temple where they did the ceremonies for the Goddess Isis from Egypt, Ciabella from Turkey, for Artemis from Ephesus, Diana the Goddess of the Moon. then, we found out that the Italians had never stopped celebrating Her. That is amazing! People don't know that--because in Greece, they once did it, but they're not doing it any more...

Does the Pope know that they're still doing it?

Yeah. But, you know, that's what is interesting. Whenever one of these cult places becomes huge, the Pope has no choice and has to make a trip and go there to make it official. So, when the Pope goes to one of these places, they say officially: "The Black Madonna's been crowned by the Pope." So, everything's cool. People are officially recognized now. It's huge., I mean, I am talking about thousands of people. Each feast day--which is either the 15th of August or September 8th--they're all throughout the summer--there's thousands of people and you know, everybody goes into these ecstasies and there's dancing and it's very sensual and erotic...

But, my understanding was that the Church was against it...

That's not true. The Church has tried to civilize the rituals by making people sing in Italian and not in dialect. But, they haven't succeeded because people still sing in dialect. Or what they try to do--which is really horrible--in some places, if it's a painting of the Madonna, they take it out and say, "we have to restore the painting." And when it comes back, it's white--or light brown!

Somewhere I read about you growing up in Rome and I have this image of the Church not being terribly happy about these processions...

Right. Well, in Rome, the Pope is the king. So, none of these rituals exist there anymore. But, in the south of Italy, they can't stop it.

So, are you now working on restoring the ritual?

As much as I can. What I am trying to do--in Italy, people are doing this out of devotion and it is very powerful and I feel connected to that. You know, that's my tradition--even though I wasn't born in the South, my grandfather played the tambourine and my grandmother sang--it is in my genes. So, I feel OK about the fact that I'm continuing my tradition and I am doing it out of devotion, but I also think it should be accessible to people outside of Italy. There is no reason that it should just stay there.

I think it's amazing that in Italy we never lost that connection with the real Earth rituals and it's so beautiful that you see that men are so devoted. Men carry the statues. Men cry. Men weep like children in front of the Mother. And then, the beauty is that men and women dance together, drum together--sometimes, it's only old women drumming--men no longer...and young women don't really drum anymore.

Why is that?

Because the young women have lost that connection with the Earth. Young women worked in the fields and were very strong with a lot of energy--which is what I decided, too--I wanted to get that strength. I felt that the strength was coming from different sources--the Earth. The Madonna. Because you see, I am not a very big muscled woman, you know, but I can outplay the guys. See that!

You look gigantic onstage...

People always say that, too. But, I always feel like I'm this little woman with this drum--and then I start playing and people go, "Oh, my God!"

I thought you displayed a kind of wild fury during your performance. A fury in the sense of the Greek furies...

Absolutely.

I felt that I could have been at the Eleusinian mysteries.

Wow!

Watching the festivals of Demeter...

...and Persephone.

And witnessing the Mysteries in the 2nd Century, A.D. You know, before the Great God Pan was declared dead and heard by those fishermen in the Aegean Sea. They heard a voice cry out of the sky that the Great God Pan was dead, several centuries later. It was around the time that the first Christian Roman Emperors began destroying the old pagan worship sites. That's why I wanted to ask you about Pan and goatskin and if your tradition was originally part of that wisdom stream...

There are three things that we are connecting now, but they're not always the same. So, the Black Madonna embodies all the aspects of the Goddess meaning the healing power of the feminine energy of the womb of the Earth--which is what women carry. The Darkness which means the acceptance of the Darkness. People wanted to be part of the Darkness--that's why a lot of people are addicts or alcoholics as we said earlier. You know, a lot of things don't work for them. But, the Black Madonna does and has an immense power with them. My ex-husband received a miracle and was healed.

I also find it amazing that your own shamanic initiation--you were born into this work from an illness in your womb. You know, the center of gravity that helps women...

...find the power where it really lies--which is not what we're taught by the media. The images of women that we're bombarded with is not where our power lies. Our power is really from the Earth and that's why we use the frame drums.The frame drums have a direct connection because they were made with the sifters and strainers that women used when they used to plant seeds. So, the frame of the drum was made with that. They took out the strainer inside and replaced it with goatskin. And then they attached very rustic jingles to it. So, that's how the instrument is connected to the Earth. It's the same instrument that's used to put seeds into the Earth.

Now you were asking about Pan and all that...there are three aspects of this tradition I am continuing to evolve--one is the tradition directly connected to the Black Madonna and the women's frame drums. Then, there is the cult of Dionysos which is really the cult of the god of ecstasy--that's where the bacchantes--the men and women who participated in these orgiastic rites, you know, were possessed by the gods and already danced to the tambourines--what we now call the tarantella. So, this goes back to the Ancient Greek sites and the god Pan is another important influence because he was associated by the Church with the Devil and all that. There's another side of those rites which were calling on the spirit of the Underworld--that energy was used for magic, but it wasn't evil as the Christian Church wanted them to believe. That's not how it was understood by the participants.

So, the rituals that we're doing were danced for Pan and Dionysos, but they're not exactly the same. They happened at different times of the year and in different places. So, I don't know if you've heard of Benevento--the witches of Benevento?

No.

That's actually a town near Naples which means 'good wind'. The strongest cult of Pan was in that area and that's where one mythic tree is where the women danced around--doing the tarantella, calling for Pan. Then, in the Middle Ages, the people called them witches and said they were doing acts for the Devil, but they were actually continuing the cult of Pan who would come inside the tree. And the tree was possibly the same as God--the Tree of Life. I've spent a lot of time doing research on witchcraft in that area.

Speaking of research, how much of yours is academic and how much of it is found through your own shamanic practice?

Aha! That's a very interesting question. Most of it until about 1996 or so was academic. Academic in the sense that I studied a lot of texts and went every place I could in Italy to get into the culture and be in it--you know, to drum and dance and be part of the rituals. The year that I had the irregular bleeding and I cancelled the surgery was the year that I understood that I could heal myself and maybe other people. Until that time, I didn't see myself as the Shaman with the Tambourine. It was only when I did it on myself that it opened that channel in my life.

I'm sure you've seen miracles since...

Yes. I had a miracle happen to me and my husband when we went to a site of the Black Madonna which was really incredible--that's what really brought us together, that day.

It's a place called Muliano near Benevento where I told you there's these strong things going on--good things--that people say are for the Madonna. And for Pan. In the middle of that area near the river called Sabbath--imagine! In this place, there is an incredible Madonna called La Madonna de la Libre--the Madonna of Freedom. We were looking for another Madonna and we ended-up in this church during the daytime. There was nobody there. My husband wasn't free then--he was still under house arrest. And we walked in there and this man looks at us and says: "If you are here to ask for a miracle, this Madonna will do it."

Why was that an incredible Madonna?

She's really super powerful. And we felt it right away. We looked at this beautiful face. Very mysterious. Very sexy. And then, we found out that she sits on the old temple of Isis, the goddess of Egypt. And she has twelve solid gold stars on her crown. We were praying there alone for a long time. I started to see the center star move...

Sounds like Yemanja?

Very much so. And I didn't know if I was just imagining what was happening and my husband who is on the other side goes: "Alessandra? The star is moving!"

And I said, "Yes, the star is moving."

And we both started crying like we knew right there and then that what we were asking for would come true. It was his freedom. And that was also freedom for us to be together. That was his healing which really began our being able to be together. It's always been really hard for me to break that vow because now we don't live together and for me to decide to move on and get a divorce--I had to go back to her last year and ask her permission for the first time without him. I still have a hard time talking about it without crying. Whoops!

So, went back there, saw her, started weeping, and remembering and remembering and saying, "Please grant me this freedom now because I know that this marriage has to end..."

I had to go back to her not to ask forgiveness, but to ask her to show me the way to move on. And I think that last year it worked.

Because now who are you married to!?!

Who am I married to? The whole world (laughs)! I feel that my heart is...

You are a woman with a mission...

And he was not part of that mission anymore. I really feel that I'm married to the world in the sense that I have to bring my music and passion to the world.

You know, you might just be married to the Black Madonna...

I feel very much like--it's a big word--but, I feel like I'm a priestess. I feel that. I was that. I am that now. And where is it taking me? It's taking me to Brazil.

Tell us more about the process of discovery in researching those songs through your shamanic practice...

It's still a learning process because the way I learned to heal myself was out of need. I was bleeding away. I was supposed to go back for surgery. In 1992, I didn't want to do it because I didn't believe in that kind of medicine before and I had to do the dance. You know, doctors tell you when you're bleeding that you shouldn't move or dance--that you have to lay down since movement is usually bad for bleeding. But, I had to dance my heart out onstage because I had to do a show and was backstage thinking, "My God, my God, either I die onstage or..."

Was this the opera you're talking about?

'The Dance of the Ancient Spider'. I was really concentrating on doing that dance for myself as a healing trance dance. Because up to that time, I had started it and presented it, but had never done it as an experiment of trance dance healing. And I did it with that belief and asking it--and you know, in twenty minutes the bleeding stopped and it never came back. I cancelled the surgery and my husband said, "Alessandra, there is something more that you're doing."

He encouraged me. Then, there was a woman at St. John the Divine in New York who had cysts and I told her, "This won't cost you anything--just try it!" And her cysts went away.

You're now one of the Artists in Residence there...

Yes, in proud company.

From there, I started taking it farther and farther. When I performed 'Dance of the Ancient Spider' at Lincoln Center, a psychiatrist who was in charge of Outpatient at Mt. Sinai Hospital came to the show and said, "I love your work. I'd love to try it with the mental patients."

And I said, "Yes!" That's where I really understood the power of this tarantella. These people are Black, Hispanic, Indian, White--all different races, all different ages. And my agreement with the psychiatrist was not to be told anything about their clinical history. I never knew what they suffered from.

The idea was to just go in there and do a little drumming and a little dancing and a little singing. And in one hour, these people were able to drum and dance and sing all at the same time--and were doing intimate rhythms that I had a hard time repeating. They became a learning process for me to see the power of this work.

After eight straight weeks, I saw them smile and talk and sing and be happy. And the doctors told me that some of them had never done that before. They had never smiled, they had never talked to each other and some of them who came in at the beginning were on medication--they would say to me, "I'm taking my meds today. I don't think I can dance today."

And then, when we started--wham! They were right there!

They were not all in balance, but they were fantastic dancers. I started experimenting there with the power of the circle, you know, which is what I do now in the tarantella--how it feels to have one person in the center and everybody around sending their healing energy with the drums or the singing--and directing the energy not just from me--but me being the builder of that energy.

So, the Mt. Sinai experiment was the origin of 'Rhythm is the Cure'?

Yeah. That's where I kept getting the ideas which I keep using in the workshops. From intersecting with the patients. And I must say, they were the quickest students I have ever had! They learned faster than anybody.

Why is that?

Because they're not self-conscious. See, if you can find a way to create a safe space...they knew I wasn't going there to study them, to report them, or to give them medication or to report to their families. My sessions with them was just me and them. And the only purpose was to make them feel better. I'd say, "I'm here to help make you feel better or to free yourself from something which is extremely heavy."

I think they came in knowing that I wasn't going to judge them. The psychiatrists said: "Well, Alessandra--musicians try to achieve that state of mind or to pass that zone. These people are already there." They've already past other zones, so they're free from other things--so, if you give them an instrument--whew! They feel: "I can do this!" Without thinking. It's not a competition. They're not being judged. It's not a performance.

I ask because a lot of the scientific literature describes--one of the reasons that psychology was interested in shamanism and also in psychedelic drugs is that they were seen as analogues to schizophrenia and other so-called 'abnormal mental states'. The scientists said, "Well, we can get inside that state now." By taking LSD, for example. So, I was just wondering because psychiatrists like R.D. Laing said that these people are just stuck and that maybe it's society that's really stuck in its view of what is normal.

In other words, we don't have these rituals and ceremonies any more, and maybe if we did, those darker energies might find their rightful place...

Absolutely. That's why I must say that the psychiatrist who gave me that opportunity was an amazing woman. Because we were risking things. People could have become very upset. They never did. So, they were shizophrenic. What does it mean? Sure, they had lots of personalities. Most of them suffered from schizophrenia, manic depression, borderline personalities--all of which I found out later on.

Some of them suffered from overeating disorders and things like that--one tried commiting suicide by overeating. Pretty intense. I don't know. There was one of them who you could see could be very violent. Sometimes she'd be violent and then, she'd be really sweet. And when she danced, it was beautiful. Sensual. Sweet. Incredible.

Getting back to research again, have you discovered songs through your own practice? Have the old songs come back to you?

I'm not sure about that. What's happens to me, especially in Brazil, is that songs come to me when I am near the water. Songs connected to different gods and spirits. Oxun, and Yemanja all the time. One just came in December when I was in a kind of shamanic initiation to Oxun. I fell in the river and started bleeding and I know I was...a sacrifice. I was with a pae do santo who is a shaman. And as soon as I left there, I went to Chile and this other prayer came to me for Oxun and the Black Madonna. I was in the forest and there was also a site to the Black Madonna in the jungle by these waterfalls. Not far from Sao Paulo.

That trip was so intense, it's still with me. That's what happens. After an experience that strong, songs come to me and it's always with the drum. It's the rhythm and the lyrics, the rhythm and the chants. So, they are coming from somewhere. But, it's by the waterfalls or by the beach near the mountains. It's a specific place.

And the drum is now taking you to Brazil again?

Much more to Brazil. Even though when I go to Italy and Calabria, I feel that I am back in the land where I started this. It is a very specific place, a spot called Cabo Vattiano. Calabria is one place where I felt that power and where I also wrote songs. the songs are always in honor of the mermaids, the sea gulls, the Madonna there. Sometimes about love. Love is connected with that for sure. I think they're chants that come to me. Chants with rhythm. And now it's more Brazil...

Why do you think that is?

I'm asking myself!

Having lived there, it's obvious to me that they would get you without a thought.

It started with a festival in Bahia. That festival with these huge names of Brazilian music opened up my artistic life to a new path. I saw many more possibilities.

Because they recognized you as a peer?

And I was completely surprised. I arrived there thinking that nobody knew me. All of a sudden, I was doing TV interviews and was thinking, "I'm just this little girl (laughs)!"

That reminds me of a story I read once about the John Coltrane Quartet's first tour of Japan. They arrived at Narita Airport and there were several thousand people screaming from the top of the arrivals building. And Coltrane apparently turned around on the stairs coming off the plane and said in all seriousness to one of his bandmates, "Who's on the plane?"

Who's on the plane! That's John Coltrane!

They had no clue.

Well, to me it was a huge surprise as I said. It was like a movie. I had just started this thing with Remo two years before.

But, that's the jungle telegraph!

You know, then I go to sleep in my room and there are calls, "We have an interview with MTV here and another over there..." And I said, "Well, I can't dodge the interviews!"

Later, I woke up and saw the Festival Program on my desk in the hotel room and I look in the back and I see Gilberto Gil--I was invited by Nano Vasconcelos--well, Gilberto is my idol and underneath his name, I see the name of my show and my name and I said, "That's me!"

So, of all the participants! It is an amazing thing to come to Brazil. They are so curious about this Italian woman who comes with the tambourine. And it just shows my photo on the Program. And they went out all over the State of Bahia, all over, you know, the newspapers. Everybody knew Alessandra Belloni was coming and I didn't know!

How was your music received?

Ah. So beautiful. So much sweetness. So much love.

They must love you there.

Love. Love. Love. And Gilberto Gil and Nano Vasconcelos both had lived in Italy and spoke Italian to me the entire time. They were constantly asking me, "Are you OK, Alessandra? Can we do anything?"

And now Gilberto is Minister...

...of Culture!

Isn't that beautiful? So, now you're in like flint! Did you see what the new President, Lula, just did?

Well, he just did that whole thing with the favella (slums), the land, the people...

They were supposed to buy $750m worth of jets from us and he cancelled the order and said, "This money is going to feed my people. It's my number one priority."

I know he did that and he's getting other countries to pay attention. He's from Pernambuco.

I have to turn you on to the Quinteto Armorial de Pernambuco. It's one of the records I'd take to a desert island...their record called, 'Romance of the Northeastern Cowboy'.

Do they use the rebecca?

Yes. They were part of the Armorial Movement in Recife. Their music is a combination of Cowboy music, Portuguese Baroque, Indian, and they infiltrate some indigenous sounds. And what comes out sounds like a jungle raga.

I know so many people in Recife. What happened to me in Bahia, I met this incredible musician, poet, singer, Siba. He's the leader of a group called Mestre Ambrosio--it's a mask from a Comedia del Arte character (Master of Ceremonies) from there. He plays the folk fiddle, the rebecca. He was the first person I met in the country in Brazil. He's so sweet. He said, "Welcome to my land!"

Then I asked, "What do you play?" And he said, "Rebecca." And I said, "Oh, my God!"

Because in the Middle Ages in Italy, the tarantella, the Sicilian trance dance, was played on the rebecca. And I had never seen one of those outside of a museum. I'd seen the ones that they use for Early Music, but they're really soft. My friends use these instruments, too. They also use indigenous sounds.

Because of Siba, I became part of that community--all the best musicians in Recife. And we started a collaboration and then I decided to start a group in Brazil in Sao Paulo with all of these musicians from Recife.

Are you recording?

That's what I need to find. A label that is interested in this project. So, we're connected--the South of Italy through instruments, rhythms, and songs with the Northeast of Brazil. They're almost the same. The tarantella on the rebecca sounds unbelievable. And we're creating new things that are taking us places...We've said to each other, "I'm sure nobody has ever done that before!" It's really an amazing collaboration.

It's very tough to find a label. That's why I'm going back to Sao Paulo. I know an agent there. I think that it is very special music and something to offer people that they've never heard before. It goes back through history and the common roots which are Africa and the Islamic world. Because that influenced us and them.

Like the tar?

The rebecca, the tar, even some of the chants. And then they use the guitar violas nordestino which has a dissonant sound--we have guitars with a similar sound which originally was from the Islamic world--the lute with double strings, ten strings. the more I go, the more I find connections. And then, when the old people sing--it's really amazing!

What's the new CD?

My next CD is coming out in March. But, I really hope to do the next one in Brazil. I have to do that. I feel that's my new mission--merging these cultures and evolving something else. I think the world needs that--it's important to come together.

Can you say more about that?...About what you're doing to restore the tradition of honoring the Darkness, for example, is something that's really needed...

That's part of my dreams. I have a lot of dreams that tell me what to do. Premonitions. I dreamt the explosion of the World Trade Center several times. So, in my dreams, I feel this mission and I really think that somehow I'm on the right path, right now.

This is still the Journey of the Black Madonna?

Yes. It is the voyage of the Black Madonna and that's what I have to write about in the book.

Are you starting from the beginning? Because you said that your grandparents performed.

I only found that out very late. I remember that my grandfather played the mandolin and the tambourine and I know that sometimes my grandmother sang, but I didn't know that's how they met and fell in love--playing music.

Were they 'hill people'?

My grandfather was. But, the problem was we just wanted to listen to rock and roll! We didn't want to listen to Italian folk music when we were small, especially our generation, so I never learned anything directly from my grandfather. So, when he died, he took that tradition with him. Who knows? How many songs did my grandmother know? But, we were embarrassed, you know, by these family gatherings on Sundays--"Oh, there they go with that folk music again!" That's the funny thing about my family--everybody is completely into rock and roll except for me right now.

What do they all think of what you're doing right now?

They don't get it. They really don't get it. My mom loves Eric Clapton. She's eighty-five! Jimi Hendrix. Jim Morrison. Because of my brother and sister. She does like all the stuff that I do with Brazilian music.

And you did some on the last CD. There was some batucada...

There was a Bahiano influence...

Let's talk about the workshop this past weekend.

Rick: Actually, one of the things I wanted to say was how I experienced the ability to let go. I felt completely safe. It was the first time I felt that I could dance in front of people. I thought it was very compelling--not to feel self-conscious. One of the things that Alessandra allowed everybody to do at the end of the workshop was to comment on the experience.

One of the things I resonated with was how great it felt for me to let go in a group of people. It's something that has always been very difficult for me to do right from being a kid. The English way I experienced coming into my teenage years was if you went to a dance, you'd be backed-up against a wall and you'd be watching everybody on the dance floor. And you'd drink. And sort of by the sixth or seventh drink, you'd have enough courage to come in. And this workshop was the first time that it didn't matter. I felt that I could express myself, and not feel self-conscious.

Lauren: I think that's where there's a huge difference when you create rituals around the dance experience. That night, I felt especially that you created a circle around the Black Madonna, and invoked the spirit and the energy of the Goddess in that way. The space that's created is the space that's connected to the womb. A safe space. And with Alessandra's workshop and the circle, it's very clear that the energy of the Black Madonna was in the room as soon as she began teaching and then, when we began the final dance, it was such a wonderful space that people were feeling Her presence with their hearts.

I think that's what is missing in contemporary dance--when people go out and dance. There's no ritual.

It's primarily a mating ritual.

Lauren: But, it's not to me--it's not even acknowledging the spiritual side of the being you're dancing with. It's not even a ritual. When you create the ritual, it changes the experience of dancing. The body's not dancing--the spirit dances you! And that's why your ego is left behind...

Alessandra: The ego is really our biggest spiderweb.

Rick: I think that maybe a lot of men suffer from that--they feel very awkward.

That's why I was asking at the top of the interview about men participating. It's interesting to hear a man talk about this ritual work in a way that Rick just did. Because of the tradition that men are less connected to the Earth by nature...

Not in Italy.

Not in Italy? Well, here it seems that technology is situating us even more in our heads than ever!

In Italy, it's so beautiful! They get on their knees and weep at Her feet. As I said before, the men are the ones who carry Her statue in the processions. You know, these really strong Italian guys--they're all weeping. It's a real brotherhood. And then, the women join them in the procession and chant. I think that once you see that you can tell that there's a real harmony there. I mean, it's not perfect. But, that relationship between men and women is really lost in most places.

Rick: I think that with the youth today, you go to a dance and a lot of them are popping pills...

Alessandra: That's the problem!

Rick: Yeah, and as you said, by creating a ritual, it gives you such an easy feeling where--when I lay down on the floor and was watching the room--it felt like I was alone. Alone in one sense, since I didn't even acknowledge that anyone else was in the room. It was me and the Black Madonna.

Alessandra: Wow!

Rick: It was very powerful.

Alessandra: I close the dance--this is all my own work and has evolved through the years--with everyone spinning to the left side of the Planet and going down on the floor with their feet towards the center, so that we are all in the circle again in the safe space.

It's very important to have that safe space. I always experiment on myself first, but what makes me really feel good is--when I've been drumming and dancing from eight at night until six-thirty in the morning--is to go to the beach and into the water and then, to fall asleep on the sand. That's how we would go to sleep because these are usually places in the middle of nowhere and you can't find a hotel or anything, so you just go to sleep on the beach.

And then, you wake up to the sound of the waves. And that's when I thought, "How am I going to get people to dance for so many hours without getting them tired and then bring them back to the calm thing that I felt in Italy?"

Then, I thought, "The ocean drum!" And that's how you create the waves and go back into the Mother.

Rick: It was interesting because when we close out the circles with the silence, that's where the integration takes place. The ocean really is like the way that shaman's use the rattle.

Alessandra: Right.

I have to ask you--when you are doing the Dance of the Ancient Spider, do you ever relive your birth?

No. Other things happen to me (laughs).

Like what?

Whoops (laughter)!!!...Other things (laughs)...

OK. Well, that's what it looked like to me.

My birth? I have experienced that in different ways going into trance.

I just wondered--specifically because of your reference to the descent into the Mother--you were mentioning that some of the photos from the workshop looked like cave paintings.

Right. Absolutely.

And one of the things that interests me is the rituals in the cave, if you think about what was involved in one of those initiations, especially in the Upper Paleolithic.

Dying and coming back...in a sense. You see, the thing is, when I teach, I can't let go because I have to be a shaman. You have to hold the space. In Italy, it's different because I let go. Or in Brazil. Because when I am with the right players, then I just let go. Then, sometimes I remember and sometimes I don't remember. It's really--whew! All I remember is that you feel like something grabs you from behind the head, then I fall back and I see things that are really interesting around me that are not really there.

Like what?

The first time I went into a trance was not in Italy--it was in Nashville! The first time I went into a trance, I saw what I knew was Brazil, but I'd never been there. And it was the place where I first fell and hurt my foot. And it was initiation in forests, waterfalls, blood--all that. But, other times, it's lights, tunnels--a lot of times birds. I see the eagle a lot. And now I've just learned that it's my power animal.

How did you find out?

Because I started working with a shaman in Brazil. Carmina Levy is her name. She took me on this journey. I was teaching at night and she was teaching during the day. So, I started with her because I know that I have to have more control of myself, too--for me to let go, but also how do I get back, you know? "Somebody bring me back!!!" So, three days there was like three years.

Aren't there rhythms to bring you back?

Right. So, when I am with the right people that are doing this, sure, they know how to do that. The thing is, in Italy, when they play the tarantella, there is only one rhythm, it's at 6/8 and it just goes faster, faster, faster. So, no. There is no such thing as bringing you back. With the tarantella, at a certain point, you just collapse.

Or you become a schizophrenic! If you get trapped. They're stuck, they got lost, and never came back.

I guess they are. I don't know enough about schizophrenia. I want to.

I'm referring to people who may have taken a shamanic journey and lost their way back.

Exactly.

Like Persephone.

And they have more personalities because of it.

Rick: Persephone?

We were talking earlier about the Ancient Greek mystery center at Eleusis and when I saw Alessandra performing in Pasadena, I saw her as a maenad.

Rick: The thing I really wanted to bring up is what an incredible player you are!

Oh, thank you.

Rick: I think that it's one side of what you do that not everybody emphasizes. You know, because you do so many things.

Are you talking about how difficult it is to play the tamburello?

Rick: Not only that. But, what Alessandra will do is she'll play this amazing drumming and she'll be singing and dancing at the same time! I mean, it's difficult enough just to get some of those techniques.

My friend Patrick, who's part of the Artist Collective--you were playing this rhythm--it was like this 6/8 rhythm and you were getting all these really cool accents--well, Patrick just looked at me--and this is a guy who's been studying tabla for five or six years, and been to Africa, been to India, he's a very accomplished musician--he just turned to me and said, "She's bad!"

Alessandra: (Laughing) All my drummer friends say that, too!

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. It it's important to mention your musicianship because all the ritual stuff...

Alessandra: But, I learned it the hard way by doing it all night long!

Rick: The whole thing is, if you don't bleed, you're nothing!

Alessandra: You're not playing (laughter). That's how I learned. You have to bleed on the tambourine--otherwise you're not playing. So, until you bleed, you're not really playing it.

Sounds biblical...

It is. It's part of the initiation, especially in Puglia where they do the Spider Dance. It's incredible to watch--all these people with all these tambourines! And all this blood that's going all over the goatskin. It's really amazing. That's part of it, though, it's really important.

Rick: I visited Remo today and I told a few of the guys down there what we were doing on the weekend and everybody there was like: "She's the real deal, eh?!"

Alessandra: Really?

Rick: In terms of the playing. I think unless you've experienced your workshop, there's a whole other side to what we do--but, purely in terms of playing, you have a lot of respect from a lot of other players.

Alessandra: That's important to me. Thank you. Especially coming from you.

Rick: It's always good for me to hear it from another player, you know. Paul Doucette saw the Def Leppard soundcheck here in LA at the Universal Amphitheatre--you know, he plays with Matchbox 20. He just turned to me and said, "That was amazing!"

It's great to hear it from another drummer.

Alessandra: Absolutely. I agree.

Rick: That to me is--I did what I set out to do.

Alessandra: I only understood this a few years ago thanks to Glen Valez. I didn't know that. I just thought, "I play tambourine, it's not so important after all."

What I've discovered, what I want to say is that--since I am a woman percussionist and there aren't so many of us around--on a professional level, all I experience all around is that the male drummers are all my brothers. They respect me. They honor me. And it feels like I have brothers all over!