An interview with Ed Orton
Ed is a member of the "Echota" Cherokee tribe of Alabama, a member of the Raven Drum Board of Advisors and also sits on the Board of the Chumash Interpretive Center in Thousand Oaks, California.

December 2002

This interview which is presented in its entirety was conducted by Kevin Stein in November, 2002, in Toluca Lake, California. (Please note that all transliterations of the Cherokee language are phonetic for easier pronunciation as opposed to grammatically correct).

I'd brought Ed a copy of a new book called, Cherokee Voices: Early Accounts of Cherokee Life in the East edited by Vicki Rozema. I asked him how the contents of the book looked after he briefly perused it and he started to chuckle, showing me a quote on the dust jacket which said, "The chapters take the readers from where the Indians were dependent on European trade to when they became self-sufficient farmers and tradesman."

So, that's a case in point where people don't understand what the Cherokee Nation was like prior to contact. It fits neatly with the first question I'd prepared to ask you which is: what is the most important thing that people should know today about the Cherokee Nation and People?

First of all, up to this point not only the Cherokees, but most of the Eastern-bord people from the Iroquois all the way down to the Seminole were self-sufficient farming people who raised crops. They had villages that looked almost like European villages prior to the Europeans coming here. There is this notion many people have that all Indians lived in teepees. Well, the Cherokees had fortified villages--I forget what the proper term is--with at least a ten-foot high fence going all around the village. In the center, that's where the Council House was. It was built up on a mound and was very reminiscent, in fact, of the Ancient Mayan temples--except that it wasn't a pyramid, it was a seven-sided council house built upon a mound.

Like the Mississipian Cultures?

Exactly. The Cherokees were very established farmers prior to Contact. They raised corn, beans, squash--what's known as the "three sisters". They knew what wild plants were edible and how to gather them, and actually, when the Europeans arrived--especially the first Europeans at Plymouth Rock--they would have starved to death if it hadn't been for the Indian people up there in Massachusetts who brought to them the crops that they grew.

So, it's kind of interesting that in one of the treaties that was signed by the Cherokees in the late1700's or early 1800's, as part of the treaty pact, the Europeans gave them farming tools "to help them become better farmers". Well, they were accomplished farmers before the Europeans came here.

The Cherokee People covered a vast area of land where now there are parts of eight Southern States--Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, both Carolinas, Georgia, and Alabama. In that territory, they had eighty different villages or towns--they actually called them "towns". And each town was basically autonomous. There was no one ruler over the Cherokee Nation. Each town had their own. Each had two chiefs: a War or Red Chief and a White or Peace Chief. The White Chief was known as the "Uku". There are several ways of saying it depending on the dialect--some say "Uka", some "Ukowa", others "Uku".

He was the one in charge of the town during times of peace and also conducted the religious ceremonies. Now, when the Cherokees were at war, then the Red Chief or War Chief became in charge of the village. The Peace Chief still had authority because he still maintained the balance of the ceremonies. The Cherokees had a government that consisted of the Uku and his assistant and then, the War Chief and his assistant, and they each had seven Council People. And they also had a Council of women. Beloved women. They had what would basically be considered a socialistic, democratic system of government.

Similar to the Iroquois Confederacy?

Very similar. The Cherokee are said to be descendants of the Iroquois. Some say that we come from the Algonquin stock. Then, there's a lot of similarities between the Cherokee and the Central American cultures--the way that we built our villages, for example. Even the way that the leaders dressed. There's a lot of similarity between the artwork, and carvings between the Cherokee and say, the Maya.

I've seen the connections between the Mississippian cultures and the South and Central American peoples, but I don't know enough about the Cherokee culture to make the connection. You mentioned there were concordances between the cultures. Are they also present in the symbolic life, their religious life as well?

I really couldn't say because I don't know that much about Mayan religious rituals. But, if you look at the way artists depicted their religious leaders, and artists like George Caitlin who depicted Cherokee spiritual or holy men, the dress is very similar.

How did they dress?

The main difference from pictures I've seen is that the Mayans wore almost what looked like breech-cloths or sometimes what we call "aprons". And they wore capes made of feathers. The big difference there is that, in Cherokee land, buckskin leggings were worn. Usually looking in on the ceremonies, they might be yellow or might be white. But, if we go further back, the Cherokee had a priesthood called the "Ahnee-Kootahnee" which has been translated to mean "priests". Within the Cherokee social structure, we have seven clans. The priesthood was considered an 8th clan, but they weren't really a clan because any boy from any of the other seven clans could be chosen to become a "Kootahnee".

Were they also healers or were there separate functions?

There were separate roles as healers. The Kootahnee or priesthood basically ran the religious ceremonies. They used crystals to do divining, but they weren't really medicinal or allopathic healers. Their main function was the religious ceremonies. The way that they chose a boy about the age of nine or so, if the parents of this boy or priest thought that he would be eligible for the priesthood, the priests would come and take the boy out onto the mountain, and from sunrise to sunset, he would have to watch the sun go across the sky and if he took his eyes off it just once, then he wasn't qualified to be a member of the priesthood. If he did qualify, that's when the training actually started to become versed in the ceremonial life. That was at age nine, and then, they usually became a full-fledged priest by the time they were thirteen or fourteen. They would live the rest of their life that way.

Does the ceremonial life survive today? Because with respect to a lot of tribes, many were either enslaved like out here in California to make the missions and then Christianized, or they died of disease--as you know, some of the languages and peoples actually disappeared entirely. The Esselen tribe of Central California, for example, is said to have been so deciminated by illness that they were extinct shortly following contact--although I was surprised and happy both to see recently that there are those who claim they are Esselen descendants today--so it's hard to say what happened there. Hopefully, some survived colonialization after it took a foothold. So, how did Cherokee ceremony fare and how has it been maintained?

In some respects, the ceremonial life has survived, but a lot of the ceremonies have been lost. Since the Cherokees were on the East Coast, they were one of the first tribes to have contact with Europeans. Many actually thought that if they became more like the European people, then the white people would leave them alone. So, they assimilated into the white culture very easily. One thing that had to do with that also-- a lot of the first Europeans who came over were the Irish, Scotch, and the Welsh who all came from clan systems. So, the Cherokees related to them because they also had a clan system. But, a lot of the ceremonies have been lost since that time.

A few that are left are still performed within some bands--there's the Green Corn Dance, the First New Moon of Spring Ceremony, and the biggest surviving aspect of ceremonial life is the Stomp Dance which is a religious dance. Other than that, the Cherokee had seven ceremonies that they did. Six of them were performed annually and the seventh one was done every seven years and that was the Dance of the "Uku", and that was done to honor the Uku. But, that's been lost and most of the other ceremonies. The Green Corn Dance and the First New Moon of Spring have largely been lost, or if they haven't, then they are being practiced secretively.

Can you tell more about the use of crystals by the Cherokee? In particular, you mentioned to me the other night that there was a red crystal that was associated with this mythological creature of the Cherokee.

The thing is, I have not had any personal training in the use of crystals for divining--so, I don't know that much about it. The Cherokee priests did use crystals during certain ceremonies that would tell the future or outcome, and one of them was done during the First New Moon of Spring Ceremony. It would be done in conjunction with the ceremony as part of the seventh day when all the people in the village went down to the river and did a River Ceremony. The Water Ceremony is kind of a purification or cleansing ceremony. The way that it is done is--it had to be "live water" like a river, stream or creek--you went into the water, deep enough you know, waist high, and then, you would submerge yourself seven times while you were facing the East and saying your prayers.

Then, the people would come out of the water and the priests had this ark in which they kept the crystals and they would take out a specific crystal and each person would come up and they would stare into it. If the priest saw their face in the crystal as being happy, then the next year was going to be good. If the priest looked in the crystal and saw some tragedy in their face, then that person might die or become very sick in the coming year.

Now, with the red crystal, the story goes that in Cherokee mythology, there was a creature called the "U'k Taynah". The U'k Taynah is basically a giant rattlesnake with wings and antlers--pretty similar in beliefs to the Celtic dragons. It is said that just its look and breath could kill a person and that its forehead had a clear crystal with a red line going through it. It's a very powerful crystal and from my understanding, there's only one in existence. But, it was said that only the most pure of men could kill the U'k Taynah, and without going through the whole story, there was a time when this hunter went out to kill the U'k Taynah and he did so.

The U'k Taynah had seven spots going down--I can't remember whether it was on it's back or front--and you had to shoot an arrow into the seventh spot because that was where its heart was. So, a hunter did that and he obtained this crystal from the U'k Taynah's forehead and he became the most powerful of all the Ukus. And from my understanding, the way that you had to care for this crystal is that you had to cover it with seven layers of deerskin and you had to put it in a cool, dry place and back in the Old Days, of course, it was caves that they hid it in. They had to move this crystal around from time-to-time and change its location so it goes that if the crystal became too familiar with the location it was in, it would grow into another U'k Taynah. The crystal is used by this particular family and has been in their possession for many generations now and is used in very sacred ceremonies. A friend of mine down in Florida went to a gathering of a bunch of the smaller bands of Cherokees at Red Clay, Tennessee, and Red Clay--that's where the "Blue Water" is.

The Blue Water are a very sacred place to the Cherokee People. It's a spring that--coming out of the ground where the pool is--it's as blue as if you're looking into a swimming pool. We know the reason that swimming pool water is blue is because the bottom of the pool is painted blue. But, in the case of the Blue Water, it's dirt down there, so you can't paint the dirt. When the water runs out of the pool into the stream, it's crystal clear. Well, this particular spring, the Blue Water, is believed to be where spirits enter into our world from the below world.

Anyway, at this gathering in Red Clay, the family that has this--they call it the "Blood Crystal"--brought it down and only a few chosen people were invited to gaze upon it when it was unwrapped. But, no one was allowed to touch it. They could only handle it when it was wrapped in the deerskin. When the ceremony's done, they take it and wrap it up and put it back in its lodging place.

Did your friend see it?

Yeah. He said it was one of the most powerful experiences he's ever had in his life--and I can believe it!

You're a member of what band?

I'm a member of the Ee Chotah Cherokee tribe of Alabama. They're an offshoot of the Chicamonga Cherokees. The Chicamongas were a tribe who in the 1770-80's were led by a man named "Dragging Canoe". He was getting really fed-up with the frontiersmen. Because of his fierceness in battle, a lot of the white settlers called him the "Cherokee Dragon". He was fed-up with the encroachment of the Europeans who were coming over here and so he took a group of Cherokees from the North Carolina area and they went over into the Tennessee area the settlers had named Chicamauga Creek. That's how they became known as the Chicamauga Cherokees and to this day, offshoots of the original Chicamonga band are still considered to be the rebels of the Cherokees. They like to shake things up.

I've also been a member of an organization based in Florida called the Pan-American Indian Association for several years now. It's people from all walks of life--a lot of them happen to be Native, and the majority of those who are Native happen to be Cherokee because they're in the Southeast area. Within the Pan-American group is my friend and mentor, White Bear. He has been called upon by the spirits to re-establish the Kootahnee--the ancient priesthood of the Cherokees. He started an organization called the Priests of the Phoenix, and of course, the phoenix is a representation of the rising from the ashes. He has called upon me to help with this.

The idea behind it is to continue to try to revive the Cherokee ceremonies and to do them in the proper way. In today's society, we couldn't do them in what was considered the "proper way" because each ceremony required hunters to go out and kill enough deer to feed the people who would come to the ceremony. And of course, we can't do that anymore. You can still hunt deer, but a lot of deer were required.

I understand from a New York Times article this past week that the deer population is taking over in the Northeast. For example, they had a map showing the thousands of highway collisions that happened last year in comparison with the past and the difference is astronomical. The article also mentioned, interestingly enough, that the cougar population is following them into New England...

Good! That's a good sign.

That's a good sign, isn't it?

But, there's also a lot of the other aspects of the ceremonies that can't be done the way they were done several hundred years ago and so, we have to adapt, we have to make some changes and that's what tradition is all about. "Tradition," as my friend White Bear says, "Traditions stay alive by each new generation coming to know that tradition and adding their own, I don't want to say "views"-- I wish I could quote exactly how he says it--but basically, traditions stay alive with each generation by the glories every new generation brings to the tradition--so some things may have to change.

For example, back in the 1600 and 1700's, it was a tradition for the Pawnee to commit human sacrifices until one day when the most powerful holy man had a dream or vision that said it wasn't right, so they stopped the practice. That's one of the things that I think is a very strong point of the Native Americans on this Continent, on Turtle Island, is that we have a great ability to be able to adapt and take the good of other cultures and use it in our own.

Is it possible that the sacrifices that were made by Indians has put the tribal peoples of this land in a special position to pull us out of the spin cycle we're in now? I've thought that maybe part of the karma of Native America is that they're going to save all us honkies...For example, I've always looked at Crazy Horse as a kind of American Christ figure...

This is the way I look at it. I don't think any one culture or race is going to save the world. I think that the philosophies and ideas that Native American People have and the ways to keep balance and harmony in the world sufficed for them before the Europeans came over here. But, after the Europeans came, that didn't work for them, but that was because the Europeans brought over new diseases. I think that in today's society, those ideas and beliefs can make a change--but it can't just be the Native American People. People with open hearts have got to--and I know out there in the world today there's a big controversy over whether a non-Indian should practice Indian ways...

But, if you look at what I call a lot of holy men--people like Crazy Horse--even though Crazy Horse fought the white man--he only fought them off his own land. They were trying to take it away from his People. Even he had a vision with a rainbow in it and to me, that shows all the colors, all the races coming together.

Black Elk had the dream, the vision of the people coming together. Frank Fools Crow says that all people have got to be willing to sacrifice and give up certain things to make this world a better place. A Cherokee Elder who I listen and talk to quite often--a woman named Rave Hail--she has a quote that I really love, she says: "Cherokee spirituality is not just for Cherokees, it's for all the Children of the Earth."

And I know that within the American Indian Movement there's a big thing about whether non-Indians should practice Indian ways--sweat lodges, going to Sun Dances, and stuff like that--but a lot of the people who I consider the holy people are open and think that all people with good hearts can do these ways--and that it would behoove the world if everybody could have such an open heart--and maybe it's not just the indigenous people of this Continent, but indigenous people all over the world who hold the same beliefs. They just did different ceremonies and I think wherever non-indigenous people around the world live, if they could adhere to the indigenous ways of whatever land they live in, I think the world would be a better place.

That's actually part of the Raven Drum mission as we describe it. But, getting back then to indigenous peoples, I wondered if you could tell more about the Pan-American Indian Association and what happened--because that was an interesting story you told about getting those holy people across the Border without papers.

I can't remember her name, but my friend White Bear, who happens to be the head of the Association, was relating the story to me about--there's a woman who's also a member--I think he said she's either Comanche or Cheyenne. I can't remember, but she's an enrolled member of the tribe she belongs to which the Pan-American Indian Association has Indians who are federally recognized, not federally recognized or not even recognized any place--either by the Federal government or State. There's also non-Indian people involved in the organization.

But, this particular woman went down to Central America as part of this World Peace Healing Conference and she met with a lot of spiritual healing people down there, and then they were all going to come back up to the United States to continue this train of thought--for lack of a better term--the peace process--and when they came to the Border, none of these spiritual tribal people had any paperwork because they weren't part of the government of the countries that they lived in. They were indigenous people from those countries.

So, they were stopped at the Border and they weren't going to let them through and the Indian woman from up here showed her ID--her driver's license and birth certificate and then, she showed her tribal card and said: "I'm a spiritual leader from my tribe and these are spiritual leaders from their tribes and have come up here to do a ceremony."

And the Border Patrol or whoever it was still wouldn't let them across, so then, when she showed her membership card in the Pan-American Indian Association which is recognized by the Federal Government as a religious, cultural educational association...

It's a 501C3, a Foundation, right?

Yeah. A 501C3. When she showed them her membership card, they let her through with her visitors. The term "Pan-American"--a lot of people seem to think that's a big "no-no" word--with a lot of American Indian people. Pan-Indianism--well, the word just basically means when you say "Pan-American", you're including all the countries that are considered the Americas--North, Central, South America. So, you're including indigenous people from all those countries--not just North American Indians.

Well, let's talk about language then. I mean, first of all, "Indian" versus "Native American". Tell me if you don't want to be put on the spot about that--and I also want to talk about the Cherokee language...

My personal opinion is I actually prefer to be called "Indian" rather than "Native American". My way of looking at it is anybody who is born in America now is a Native American. And if you just call the Indian People "Native Americans", that means, well, we didn't have any identity before this country was known as "America".

Right.

...even though it was a mistake by Columbus because there are two versions of why he called the people here "Indians". The first story--and it's probably the most popular belief--is that he thought he was in the East Indies and of course, that's what they called the people there. They called them "Indians".

The other story is that he called the people "In Dios" which in Spanish means, "Children of God". So, I like to look at it that way--I prefer being called "Indian" or just Cherokee.

There is a radical faction of the Cherokees who say we're not Indians--we're not Native American--we're Cherokee.

We're the"People"?

Well, the actual word for our tribe--what we called ourselves--was not Cherokee. Cherokee comes from a word that was a Creek word "Sah Lah Gee"--which means "people of the mountains or cave dwellers". Of course, the English, Spanish, and French bastardized that to "Cherokee". We call ourselves "Ah'nee noh weah"--which means the "principal people" or "the real people". If you go further back, to where the first village of the Cherokee was--it was a town called "Keetowah". The meaning of Keetowah has been lost, however.

But, do you know where the Ancient Homeland is approximately?

Oh yeah. The North Carolina-Tennessee area.

And is the location of Keetowah known?

It's either in Eastern Tennessee or Western North Carolina. But, the people called themselves the "Ah'nee Keetow Gee" which means "People of Keetowah". So, the town was called "Keetowa Gee", so whenever you add a "Gee" at the end of something, that means, "the place of".

It seems to be standard. Here in Southern California, the Tongva people wouldn't ask your name if you were visiting form another village or band, but would greet you with"which village are you from?" And that was your identity.

I spoke with a Tongva spiritual man and "Tongva" was basically--for example, what the Iroquois call themselves, I can't pronounce it, but what the word actually means is "People of the Long House". But, there were six different tribes of the Iroquois. Everybody seems to think that the Iroquois is one tribe.

A Confederacy of Tribes, actually.

Yes. So, the Tongva people are basically smaller bands from the Paiute or Shoshone people. But, they each call themselves by the village they come from.

Right.

And Tongva is just like a Confederation of all these villages. Then, of course, the Spanish came and named them for the area they lived in--San Gabriel--and the Tongva people were known by the Spanish as "Gabrielinos".

...after the mission that they were enslaved to build.

Exactly.

So, who would want to be called "Gabrielino"?!

Yeah.

Speaking about names, can you talk about your name since it is also part of the name of the Foundation as well--and it's an important being to us?

Well, let's go back a little bit. I was first given a name, I was given a name--"Pahloh Gee Skee No' Wah Neah Nuboh"--which means "Iron Shirt". And that name was given to me because, at the time, I was a warrior. I worked for the Los Angeles Police Department and the person who named me that--it's an honorable name--she named me that because of my warrior status at the time.

Then, after I started having my dreams and visions that were guiding me on the spiritual path, White Bear, down in Florida, based on the dreams I told him that I had--the Vision I told him I had--he gave me the name "Go Lah Na". Originally, it was "Go La Na Na Dah". "Go La Na" means "Raven", "Na Dah" could mean either "moon" or "sun", but since it was a masculine name--and here's where Cherokee's kind of different from a lot of tribes--since it was a masculine name, it means "moon". Unlike a lot of other tribes who look at the sun as the male entity and the moon as the female entity, the Cherokee, in the Old Religion, it was reversed. The moon was the male entity and the sun was the female.

I wanted to ask you about astronomy because you mentioned that a lot of the ceremonies took place or were based around the new moon...

The reason that a lot of the ceremonies were done around the New Moon is because the belief is that you want all good things to come during the waxing period instead of the waning period because that's also renewal.

It seems to be a law of nature.

Right. And the difference is with the Cherokee, what is known in astrology nowadays as the New Moon is what the Cherokees actually called the "Dark Moon"--where there is no visible moon. The Cherokee New Moon was when you could see the very first sliver of light after the Dark Moon. So, that's what the Cherokees considered the New Moon.

What's that tattoo?

Oh, this tattoo on my finger? It's an African symbol which means "spirituality" or "the soul", and I always joke around that, you know, when I get cut off by somebody on the Freeway (he raises middle finger), I figured they needed a little "soul". (Laughter)

In terms of the Cherokee language, it's really beautiful as spoken and it seems like when you explain some of the words that, like so many languages, it gets reduced somehow in the English translation--something is lost. Sometimes the original language can be much more expansive as a way of putting together words. There were a couple of examples you gave me the other night--I asked if you could speak some Cherokee and you just gave some beautiful phrases off the top of your head...

I only wish I was more fluent in the language. Like I said, as much as I know, I know enough to say my prayers and use Cherokee words, but I did take some lessons from some fluent Cherokee speakers, a married couple from Oklahoma and North Carolina.

Maybe what I was asking was how the language works?

It's like with a lot of native tribes--sometimes just one word is a whole sentence.

That's what I meant.

So, the best example I can give you is the word for "horse" is "So' Gree Lee", So Gree Lee actually means "he carries the burden on his back". I think the other example I gave you is that you can learn Cherokee words, but if you don't know how to speak conversational Cherokee, then a lot of times the words get lost.

To say "I" or "me", you say, "Aie Yunh". To say "love" is "Alah Gayk' Dey" and to say "you" is "Na' hee". But, you don't string them all together and say, "Aie yunh alah gayck dey na hee." To say "I love you" in Cherokee, you say, "Gunga Ey A Weah." So, it's a different language. You could say words, but you try to put those words together in a sentence and you may be speaking wrong. I know I've done that in the past--for example, when I was taking the Cherokee language classes, we would have them at night and I was leaving one night and I was looking at the elders who were teaching us and I said, "Osta' so' noee"--"osta" is "good", "So' noee" is "night"--and they laughed at me.

They said, "That's good. But, you don't say 'good night' that way." And I forgot how exactly you say "good night".

You mentioned the number seven many times now. What's the importance of that number in the Cherokee universe?

It's just a very sacred number. The national symbol of the Cherokee Nation is a seven-pointed star. We have seven clans. All of the ceremonies are done over a seven day period. We believe we descended from the Pleiades which is a group of seven stars.

The Sisters...

Like the Lakota have the White Buffalo Calf Woman who brought the Teachings to them, the real stout, traditional Cherokees believe that the Seven Star Woman came to the Cherokee People. We have the seven directions: the four cardinal directions, then, above, below, and the Center.

And the architecture? Does that reflect the number at all or astronomy?

The council house is seven-sided. That way, when they have council meetings or ceremonies in there, each clan has a specific area where they sit.

What's in the center of the council house?

The center of the council house is the Eternal Fire.

Is it always going?

It's always going. It may not always be flaming, but it will always be glowing embers--and one of the ceremonies--I think it's the New Year's Ceremony--and our New Year is in October because that's the end of the Harvest and it's at the end of the Harvest that you start your New Year. So, in the New Year Ceremony, everyone extinguishes the fires in their homes and they go to the Sacred Fire in the council house and get new coals from there to start a new fire for that year.

Is there a fire-keeper in the priesthood?

Yes. Well, I don't think he's a member of the priesthood, but he's one of the assistants to the priests. For example, when the Stomp Dances are done, the Sacred Fire has to be started in a specific way. If you go to a traditional Stomp Dance--they should all be done this way--the fire is started in the Old Way--they don't use matches or lighters, it's done with the rubbing sticks. And it has to be done by fire keepers who are trained. They keep the fires going for however long the Stomp Dance is going. Nowadays, the Stomp Dance is done only in a one night session.

Our ceremonies are only done at night. The main parts of the ceremonies--the dancing--is done throughout the night. Again, that's done in honor of that male power--the moon.

What instruments are used in the dances as accompaniment?

Women will wear turtle shakers around their legs and it's usually a lady who has anywhere from six to ten terrapin or small turtle shells that have pebbles in them to make rattles. So, when they dance, they're doing kind of a shuffle to get the "shook shook k shook shook k shook shook" going. And then, there might be one of them with a water drum. We just dance counter-clockwise around the fire.

Do you know the reason for that configuration?

The counter-clockwise? Because someone has to keep balance in the world. Everybody else dances clockwise. So, you know, if you've got everybody spinning clockwise, there's going to be some imbalance. So, there has to be some balance in there. So, we dance counter-clockwise. It is very similar to some of the Ancient Hebrew dances. They danced counter-clockwise. There's some people who say that there's many other similarities between our original ceremonies--the Cherokee original ceremonies--and the ancient ceremonies of the Hebrews. The Water Ceremony was done by the Ancient Hebrews, for example, but only by the women. Whereas with the Cherokees, everybody does it.

Does it have anything to do with baptism?

No. It's a cleansing, a purification ceremony because it is believed that as you submerge yourself in the river or live water--as you are singing your prayers while the live water is flowing--that it will wash away all the bad stuff that is coming out of you.

So, in terms of other elements in the natural world, you were known as "mountain people" and "cave dwellers". Is there something you can say about the importance of caves? I mean, are there still pilgrimages to caves and so forth? For example, there is a great cave in Kentucky called Mud Glyph Cave...

I can't answer that because most of the modern history that's known about the Cherokees is after they started living in towns. My understanding about the cave situation is that they really didn't live in caves, but when they would travel along the ridges of the mountains, they would stay in caves for protection. So, we weren't actually "cave dwellers". The caves were only temporary waystations.

One of the finest things I've experienced in a long time was the sweat I took when you poured water. I've taken a number of them, but it was a really profound experience...

Thank you.

The prayers and the singing were really amazing. Can you speak about the importance of the Sweat Ceremony--and perhaps about the" proper way" of doing it as opposed to...

I'm not an expert...

Well, you've said that one of the things that White Bear talked about was that they should be "done in the proper way in the Cherokee tradition". Is it practiced medicinally?

First of all, for Cherokees our main source of cleansing and purification was the Water Ceremony. The sweat house or the 'Asi was used for medicinal purpose--or as a lot of other tribes practice it--a man would use it before he went to war or on a hunting trip to cleanse himself in this way--you go in there and you burn herbs in the fire. In the Old Days, in the Cherokee sweat house, we didn't bring in rocks or Stone People. It was kind of a kiln, so to speak. The structure was made out of a willow frame. Then, it was covered and daubed all over in mud. So, it was a lot like an oven.

You would go in there and start a fire inside, and depending on how hot you wanted to get, that's how big you built the fire. And then, you would burn herbs in the fire either for healing or before a war party or hunting trip would go out.

What kind of herbs would be burned?

Medicinal herbs specifically used for healing. Just about every herb had some use for healing. There's a Cherokee story about it:

There was a time when all of the animals and man could communicate. The animals gave themselves freely to man to use when they were needed for food, clothing, and the use of bones for tool-making, etc. But then, man became too greedy and started taking more than he needed. So, the animals came together in council and decided, "Well, we've got to take care of these men because they're way out of whack, you know, they're bringing things in the world out of balance."

So, each animal came up with a sickness to give the men. For example, deer gives--if you abused a deer, if you didn't say the proper prayers to call them to you, and didn't say the proper prayers after you'd taken their life, you know, so that you could survive, the Oostee Ahwee--the little deer--would come and give you rheumatism. So, all the animals came up with these devices to bring illness to Mankind.

Well, the plants took pity on Man and said, "We can't let this happen." So, all the plants got together and for each sickness that an animal came up with, each plant came up with a cure. In Cherokee belief, therefore, every plant could be used as a cure for some kind of illness. So, all plants are considered medicinal--even the edible ones.

Speaking of the plants and taking pity on humans, it reminds me of how beautiful that part of the Plains peoples prayers is that asks for the Great Spirit to take pity upon us...

Yeah.

Pity has quite a different meaning in the Anglo culture than it does for Indian People...

Exactly. Pity is not necessarily--you know, when we say someone is "pitiful" we mean that they're down and out. But, when we say "take pity on us" or "I'm a pitiful man", it just basically means that "I'm a humble person and I'm no better than anyone else".

...without connection to the other kingdoms of nature--the plants, animals, and mineral kingdom.

Yeah. I'm a "pitiful" person because these plants and animals were here before me and they know more than I do. So, when you say prayers and you say, "Have pity on me", you're saying, "give me your knowledge". And you're talking to that plant, you're saying, "Give me the knowledge that you have. I'm asking, I'm praying for that knowledge to bring healing to my People".

So, the sweat literally brings you to your knees, so to speak?

Exactly. We'll get into that. The sweat is a very humbling experience because there's a lot of different looks at it. the Plains people have a different look at it. The Southwest people have a different way of looking at it. Other people have different looks at it. It's all basically the same. You're humbling yourself if you're going into a sweat lodge. The door is so low that you almost have to get on your hands and knees--so, you're actually humbling yourself as you enter that sweat lodge.

It's also sometimes the only place you can breathe, on your knees with your face in the earth...

It all depends on who is pouring the water (laughs).

You were a very gentle Master--and I think everybody there appreciated that. It shouldn't be some kind of contest. You know, sometimes people have a style of pouring water where-I mean, it's OK to thin out the men from the boys, so to speak, but I don't know about going to the extremes. I felt very comfortable with the way that you conducted it.

To me, the Sweat Lodge Ceremony is not a contest about machismo, it's not to see who can take the most heat. I always tell people that if you go into a sweat lodge and they don't let you out between rounds or whenever you have to go to the bathroom--or it's just go too hot for you--then I say don't go into that sweat lodge.

You mentioned rounds. Can you talk about the structure of the actual ceremony?

There's four rounds to the Ceremony...but, let's back up a little bit. To prepare for it, you've go to build the lodge in the right way. You've got to have a place for the Sacred Fire. And when you first build the lodge, you dig out the center where the Stone People will go and you take the dirt that was in the center and pile it about four or five, maybe six feet outside the front door--and that becomes the altar.

And the door faces which direction?

It all depends on the tribe. On the belief. The Lakota People and the Plains People will have it facing the West. The Cherokees will have it facing East because we're an Eastern tribe. It's my understanding that a long time ago, even the Plains People had it facing the East. Nowadays in the Plains, it's only somebody who is known as a "Heyokah" who has the door facing the East.

And "Heyokah" has been translated in English as "clown"?

"Sacred clown" or "contrary". Or someone who does things backwards.

Is the Heyokah more of a trickster figure actually or more like a circus clown?

With the Heyokah, I wouldn't say 'trickster', it's just that in ceremonies their teachings are the opposite. So, whatever they do, we're not supposed to do. But, they also bring humor to the people because in the ceremonies, the Heyokahs would do crazy things to make people laugh, especially during the Sun Dance.

As a matter of fact, at the end of the Sun Dance, one of the last things to happen is the appearance of the Heyokahs. They come out and while the Sun Dancers are dancing the last round, they try to tempt the dancers--they have watermelons, they're eating watermelons, they're drinking ice cold water. Or like nowadays, in modern times, like when I was up in the Sun Dance, they would come out and they would know who has got a favorite soft drink and at the end of the four days, I would always drink ice cold Dr. Pepper. And a Heyokah would come out in front of me and drink an ice cold Dr. Pepper as I'm out there dancing the last round...

Getting back to the making of the sweat lodge, what happens after the earth is taken outside?

The dirt is placed anywhere from four to six feet outside the door. It's put on a mound and on that mound--depending on what medicine the person has--the Lakota People--most of the Lakota People, I should say--place a buffalo skull out there. I personally, if I have one, place a bear skull on the altar. You have a pipe rack if sacred pipes are being used. Anything they want to be blessed, they put there out on the altar.

And then, in a direct line from the altar, another ten or fifteen feet away is the fire. The fire gets going usually about two hours before the sweat lodge starts, the reason being is that's where the Ancient Beings, the Stone People, go into. And they have to heat them up. Depending on what the ceremony is for, if it's just a standard, traditional--the Lakota call it "Inipi"--the Sweat Lodge Ceremony--it's seven stones per round and there's four rounds.

When the Ceremony gets started, everybody is blessed, the sweat leader goes in first and gets everything set up, then, he might call in his singer.

What is traditionally said before you enter the Lodge?

You say, "All my relations". In the Lakota language it's "Mee tak we o aysin". But, if people don't speak the language, I always encourage them--especially if they come from another country and they speak a different tongue--I tell them to say it in their own language because to me, all language is beautiful.

Raven (an Apache friend of the Foundation from Palm Springs) told me that he was in a sweat to which a group of Tibetan monks came. And he said that when they came out of the lodge, that none of them had any sweat on their bodies. They didn't sweat at all!

They didn't sweat!

They were out of their bodies.

That's interesting...

The prayed and went along with the Ceremony--they just didn't sweat. I guess up there in the high altitudes they do a lot of body control, especially for the cold...

They're very big believers in using meditation to control the body's functions. But, getting back to the Sweat Lodge...

Why are the Stone People sometimes called "Grandfathers"?

I don't personally call them that because it doesn't always work when you put a specific gender thing--everything has male and female energy--and then we call the Earth, "Mother Earth", but we call the rocks that come from her, "Grandfathers"? You know what I'm saying? So, I usually call them "the Old Ones" to acknowledge both energies.

How do the rounds work?

The fire-keeper brings in seven Ancient Ones, door closes, maybe an opening prayer is said. If there is an Elder in there with me, I always acknowledge them and ask the Elder to say the opening prayer. Prayer songs are sung and as they are being sung, people either join along or if they have prayers they want to say, they join in.

Each round always represents something. You might pray for something that you may be representing in a certain round. For example, someone might say, "OK, the first round represents the East", so we might pray for the energies of the East to bring healing and then you might go in the other directions accordingly.

Or someone might say, "The first round represents infants". So, you pray for all the children. Second round would then represent the adolescents--and so on. Some might pray to gain knowledge of some sort or understanding or just abundance of life--so you pray for that.

Who designates the theme, so to speak?

The sweat leader. Though it's now really a "leader". Everybody's a leader. Everybody participates. He's the one who pours the water and a lot of people call him the "sweat leader". I don't like that particular term because like I said, we're all in there as equals.

I like the way you say, "pour water". "I'm just pouring water". It shows that you treat it as an honor.

It is very much an honor. Unfortunately, there are those who use that position to get things they want, you know, whether it be money or sexual favors or just to have the feeling of being in power.

I guess that we're all being tested in some way?

Yeah. And like I told you the other night, after the last Sun Dance I went to, I was told by one of the Elders that I would be asked to pour water four times. And of course, my thing was that every time I'm going to be asked, it's going to be by a mystical Indian Elder spiritual person! And the first two or three times, it was by Elders and Indians, but the fourth time I was asked, it was by Rick and Lauren to pour water for that first sweat we had after the Drum Circle.

And when they first asked, it kind of stunned me because I thought, "Hey, this is not what I was expecting!" I was expecting some old white-haired Elder to say (imitates toothless old man), "Hey sonny, will you pour water for me?"

But, it was non-Indians. So, I look at it as we're all Friends of the Universe. So, I thought, "These people have good hearts and are asking me to do something for them," and I know that if I said "no" at the time, I would never pour water again--ever. So, I'm thankful that they sort of coaxed me into it, so to speak.

Well, we were all grateful and appreciated you being part of the Foundation's work.

Thank you.

Even at long distance--when you move to North Carolina-- it will be great to have someone on the East Coast to represent the Foundation...

We just won't have any of those East Coast-West Coast rivalries (laughs)!

Well, we have Raven U.K., too.

Is that so?

Can you talk at all about the Sun Dance without compromising the experience?

Let's see. The Sun Dance for me was a great experience. I won't go into any great detail about the Ceremony because there's a guy out there called Manny Two Feathers who wrote a book about the Sun Dance.

And there's certain things we don't talk about. That's their nature.

Yeah. Again, there's a lot of guys and women who Sun Dance and brag about it just so that they can go, "I've got power"--type of thing. And I don't really get that power...

What interested me was that you were drawn to the Plains tradition, too, and that a lot of the style of the way you poured water was very Plains-influenced to my experience.

I think I explained to you earlier that I'm a first generation Californian. My mother was Cherokee. My father was Choctaw, Both are Southeastern tribes. My parents were both mixed bloods. Both one-half each, and they were born in the early 1900's in part of the country where if you had white blood in you, you claimed to be white--otherwise you got your ass kicked all the time or got a cross burned in your front yard.

So, they weren't raised on reservations or anything like that. My mom and dad divorced when I was two years old, and although my mother wasn't traditional, she knew where she came from. We're Bird Clan of the Cherokee People. The birds are the messengers and I feel that's what I have to do with the rest of my lifetime.

So, even though she wasn't traditionally raised, she always made sure that my brother and I knew that we were Cherokee. So growing up, I always thought that my dad was Cherokee, too. I didn't know he was Choctaw until I was in my twenties. But, growing up here in California in the middle of Los Angeles not knowing anything about my culture, the only idea I had about Indians was from the Silver Screen or the theater or television. And of course, we know that most of the Indians depicted in the movies or television are either Plains or Apache People, so I thought all Indian cultures were like that. I patterned myself like that as a child.

Knowing that I was Indian, I was going to be a Plains Indian. As I got older, that just didn't feel comfortable with me. It wasn't until I was in my late twenties, that I realized that the Cherokee culture was very different and that I felt a lot of connections to it.

For example, the Cherokees are a mountain people and I always felt more comfortable in the mountains. Even though I was born and raised out here in California, I wasn't a beach person. I liked the Plains also, but it just didn't draw to me. Then, there was a time when I was working for the Police Department, I was working undercover and I had a long goatee and I sectioned it off into three different sections and braided it. I didn't do it because I thought it looked cool, I just did it and then I saw a few years later an artist's rendition of an ancient Cherokee man who had his beard braided in three sections...

What they call a "far memory", maybe?

Or genetic memory. When I started getting involved in ceremonies even after I realized Cherokee culture was different, there weren't any Cherokees out here that I knew of, who knew our Old Ways. So, I started participating in Plains ceremonies just for the simple reason that I wanted to have that connection to being an Indian, and I knew Christianity wasn't for me. And I knew that I needed some kind of spiritual nourishment.

I was drinking at the time. And a girl who was a volunteer with the Police Department who knew I was Indian came up to me one day and asked if I'd ever been to a sweat lodge. I told her that I always wanted to go there. She told me about one that was held every month out in Lancaster. The guy who poured water our there was a Lakota. So, she said she would see if she could get me invited and did, but that this Lakota man who's name was Michael, requested that "if you drink or do drugs that you don't do them for four days before the Ceremony."

At the time, I was working Vice for the LAPD and as part of our investigations, we had to do bar checks and had to look like we were part of the crowd there, so we were allowed to drink. But, only so much. So, I had a couple of beers that day and thought to myself, "I think I can go for a few days without drinking", and the sweat lodge came around and I haven't had a drink since.

That's how I knew that the Indian Way was really for me. I knew that the Indian Way was the Way because I had tried to stop drinking before--not using a Twelve Step Program or anything like that--but, my ex-wife was Christian and so I said, "I want to be a good example". So, I tried to stop drinking in those ways. I was going to Church. But, it didn't do it for me and I'd still go back to drinking, so the sweat lodge actually saved me from drinking myself to death...

Well, you've been on an amazing journey. You said that you had a breakthrough when you were working for the LAPD?

My big breakthrough came with the Rodney King beating. That happened and I thought to myself, "This is wrong. How am I working for this organization that condones that kind of activity?" But, I still hadn't broken free. People--especially family members--would ask me about it and being a loyal soldier with the Department, I would defend those officers. I'd become very defensive and angry, and actually, I realized later on that the anger wasn't because I was defending them, but it was there because I wasn't believing in what I was saying.

Was the thing I was remembering then that took place in '94-'95 the hair episode?

That was the hair episode.

You were righteous, but it took its toll.

Yeah. Yeah.

Your hair was creeping over the legal limits...

The hair was creeping over the legal limits...

But, like the story about the spiritual healers from Central America crossing the Border, you didn't have the paperwork. It's like treaties--they're made of paper, so they must be for real!

Exactly. You need it written down. After getting several Notices to Correct about the length of my hair, the man who was the LAPD Valley Bureau Chief, Pomeroy, who just recently served as Interim Chief after Parks left--he called me into his office and said, "Ed, I want to hear all about your Native beliefs."

So, I proceeded to talk non-stop for well over an hour and that's when he asked me, "Ed, is there any paperwork or any written documentation that talks about this stuff?" And I said, "Not really."

You'd told him that the length of your hair was your religious right...

Right. So, I said, "There's no books written, we don't have a Bible that mentions any of this stuff," I said, "But, there's an important document called the 1978 Native American Freedom of Religion Act."

And he goes, "Well, bring me in a copy of that and let me read it." And I said, "You can pull it off the Internet."

And he goes, "Well, I tell you what, Ed. Until I see written documentation about that, I have to side with the Department Manual which says that your hair has to be a certain length."

And in the same breath--this is what killed me--in the same breath, he said to me, "But if you practice the Native religion where you use Peyote," he said, "I'd back you a 100%!"

So, here I was thinking in the back of my mind, "They won't let me grow my hair long, but the Los Angeles Police Department will let me use what they consider a 'controlled substance'." The whole situation was very interesting.

But, the Rodney King incident was really the turning point. Yet, you remained with the Department for a while after that.

Until 2000. I thought about quitting or moving to a smaller Police Department.

But, that "evil" bumper sticker you had at the time that said, "Free Leonard Peltier", would have been viewed even in a worse way had you gone to a smaller department.

Our children were young at the time and being the devoted family man that I am, I thought I'd stick it out. When I look back at all this stuff--yeah, I was angry at the time--but I look back at it now and I've told you before, I have a firm belief that things happen for a reason. Things will be because they are, and there's no bad lesson in life--or there's no bad thing that happens to you in life if you learned a lesson from it. If something terrible happens to you and you don't learn that lesson, then it's always going to be a terrible thing to you. But, if you learn from whatever that situation brought to you, then there's a lot of good in it. You'd had the choice to think that you got some good out of it or it's still a bad thing that happened to you.

I think good is coming out of it for you because now you have an opportunity to realize a long-term dream in returning to your Homeland, right?

Yeah. I've been praying for this for a long time. And it's all coming together. I knew for the last eight years that I wanted to go back to North Carolina, even Tennessee. I even thought about Arkansas because the Cherokee side of my family migrated to Arkansas prior to the forced removal in a movement that was known as "the Old Settlers". There was a group of Cherokees who said, "You know what? We don't want to have anything to do with white people, let's just go." So, they went to that area.

So, I've been looking for a long time to go back to either my Homeland--which would be in Arkansas--or to go back to my ancestral homeland, because my ancestors actually came from Tennessee in the Smoky Mountains. So, I'm going to be in the Smoky Mountains where I've got two-and-a-half acres of land with a little stream running through where I can do my water ceremonies every morning.

And newly married!

And newly married. And the house that I'll be living in is actually two miles away from the Koowalla boundary which is the Cherokee Reservation in North Carolina.

So you literally couldn't be closer unless you were on it?

Literally. I could probably rent property on the Reservation, but since I'm not a member of that Cherokee tribe, I couldn't own land there and I want to own land--not because I want to "own" that land, but because I want that land to be mine. I want to be able to do what I want on that land.

We're just renting everything, aren't we?

Yeah. You know? And I understand that the first couple of years will probably be a little tight, a little bit of a struggle, but there again, it's the answer to my prayers and I've been praying to live a more simple life. Simplicity to me is the greatest gift that you can receive.

Because of your namesake, "Raven Moon", I have to ask you one final question which is--what does Raven represent in the Cherokee tradition?

Two different looks at Raven in the Cherokee tradition. Raven was a war bird for us and the War Chief would wear a whole raven skin around his neck. And that aspect of Raven is powerful because it protects you from the Underworld. It protects you from the Dark Side.

And the other is that it's a messenger from this world to the Other World, the spiritual world. It actually fit me in both lives as a warrior and as following the spiritual Path. And I'd always try to tell people to listen to ravens or even the crows because they are very closely related. When they're around you--listen to them, pay attention to what's going on around you, what's in your life that could be changed or that needs to be altered spiritually, emotionally or whatever.

But also, look at it this way, unlike a lot of other animals, the ravens are very family-oriented. They are a socially structured society.

They're known as "wolf birds".

Yeah. They travel in packs and they're monogamous. They are probably one of the more intelligent birds because they can talk.

And they can deal with winter...

They can deal with winter. They can deal with anything.

And as you said, they can talk. I've heard them.

I'll tell you just a little story about ravens. One time, my son was about ten or eleven-years-old and he came home and had a paper bag. He'd found a raven along the road that had a broken wing. So, he was able to get it into the bag and brought it home. We put it in a shoebox and I opened it up and let it out and it started to make this really weird sound. And I didn't want it to get away because the wall between our house and the one next door had fallen down due to the earthquake.

So, I quickly gathered it up--I had this big shoebox that some cowboy boots had come in and I was going to take it the next day to this man who lives in Simi Valley named Jerry Thompson who had a raptor rehabilitation and release program. He cared for injured birds, animals, wildlife.

Anyways, the sounds that this--I kind of realize now--that this raven was making were distress sounds because within I'd say two-minutes after I got the bird in the box, the trees around my house and the top of my roof were covered with hundreds of ravens. And I took the injured raven into the garage and left it there overnight and when we got up in the morning to go see Jerry, there were ravens still out there.

There's a lot we can learn from Raven.

Yeah, that's the way that the Cherokees look at the Raven--as a very powerful bird.